Interview with Jill Hooley

by the Polare Editor

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Jill Hooley, is a tutor in Sociology at Sydney University. She recently attended the "Re:Activate" Conference (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Activisms) in November, where she presented a paper. I asked her about her involvement in coalition politics with members of these communities.

Editor: How did you become involved in coalition politics Jill, what drew you to be involved in gay and lesbian issues?

Jill Hooley: I felt that we - tranys - had been excluded from involvement with other sexual minorities since the time of the first Mardi Gras. In my opinion, a kind of sexual fundamentalism within the gay and lesbian communities became entrenched in the late 1970s. There was also as, Gayle Rubin said, a sexual hierarchy that put tranys at the bottom of the pile with sex workers and pedophiles.

Editor: Sexual fundamentalism?

Jill Hooley: By this I mean, a rigid belief that there are only two sexes and genders and that people don't shift into other categories. For instance, lesbians excluded tranys from the Lesbian Space Project in 1994, on the grounds that we weren't "born women". I would argue along with feminist Simone de Beauvoir, that women aren't "born" but made.

Editor: Surgically made is that what you mean?

Jill Hooley: No. I'm suggesting that anyone's gender identity is constructed over time; that it's a process. I'm not saying that people's bodies aren't different. For instance, that some people need to visit a gynaecologist and some don't. I'm saying we're not defined by reproduction.

But it seemed to me that we have become thoroughly defined by our sex. Sex came to be seen to be the truth of identity in both the heterosexual and homosexual world.

Editor: "Sex" as in, "male" or "female", or "sex" as in intercourse...? Which sex?

Jill Hooley: Well, you're right to suggest it has multiple and ambiguous meanings. I mean the idea that "sex" expresses the innermost truth of ourselves. That you have a "true nature" as male or female. It seemed that sex defined who you were, just as much in the gay community as the straight.

Editor: Hang on "sex" does define your sex as what (you are) and sex with who.

Jill Hooley: Yes, but sex doesn't just come in twos; as we know from research done by people like Lee Browne, that there are likely to be at least five sexes and god knows how many genders. But Craig, the idea persists that there are essential "male" and "female" natures that are unchanging and universal. You see, feminists used the idea of gender to contest the notion that women were inherently passive, nurturing, dependant, emotional or the "peacemakers" of society. Some feminists also promoted the idea of an essential women's nature.

Editor: Oh! You mean the idea of gender as a behavior that is a result of some one's sex?

Like when the schoolboy Christos Tsolkas was told to "walk like a man" as if there was a proper way that men walked. As if it was inherent ...

Jill Hooley: Sure ... the case you're talking about suggests to me that gays and lesbians also suffer discrimination on the basis of gender behavior, not just sexuality. My point is that we live in a culture that has created a rigid model of two genders, based on the falsehood that there are two sexes with inherently masculine or feminine behavior. Clearly human identity is more mixed and varied than this model provides for. Studies done in lots of other cultures, and across time, show that gender behavior varies enormously. The native North American cultures had at least another two categories.

Editor: So, what if we had a model of five genders - what, if anything, changes?

Jill Hooley: My point is that the two gender model is based on two opposing "natures" - which is deeply restrictive of who we might become and is also a hierarchy.

Editor: Hierarchy as in one's better than the other?

Jill Hooley: Yes, as in superior and inferior. I feel that transgender politics should be about creating and allowing choices rather than limiting who we are. I feel we have a lot of personal power if we don't hide who we are nor our histories. As people, I think we have a rich and interesting mixture that is worth acknowledging.

Editor: Jill - so what are you saying? That it's not important to pass?

Jill Hooley: That's an individual choice. Crafting any gender position requires exclusions. The more rigid your exclusion of parts of yourself, the more you are haunted by a ghost.

Editor: I don't follow you - a ghost?

Jill Hooley: The logic of our culture tells us that we can only occupy one position (man) to the exclusion of another (woman). It's really about the repression of the other within yourself. I want to play ­I don't want to be put into a box.

Editor: But, isn't "trany" a box?

Jill Hooley: Craig, it's very difficult to avoid categorisation. And we need it to make claims for legal and political rights.

Editor: You need it. So, what does "trany" mean to you?

Jill Hooley: I think "trany" is best seen very broadly; I don't want to define it, but allow multiple definitions. I think any category is a mistake because identity always exceeds the category that describes the person. The community is very diverse - ethnically, sexually and otherwise. Three-quarters of tranys haven't had surgery. By emphasising diversity we include everyone.

Editor: So would you say in coalition politics, that it is really a "coalition" - is everyone, including transgender folk included there?

Jill Hooley: It's improved immensely. People in the Gay and lesbian Research Studies Centre at Sydney University proved to be open to new perspectives about sexuality. I asked Jude Irwin if she would include us along with gays and lesbians in the 1996 Health in Difference Conference. She was quite happy to do this. This is the first time we have been welcomed and included here. Gay and lesbian attendees were very impressed with papers given by tranys at this conference and at Re:Activate recently.

Editor: So, what do you think transgender folk may have in common with lesbians, gays and bisexuals? From research I've seen, and research that I've done about tranys suggests that verbal, physical, and emotional discrimination levels are similar. And now, I feel that we all challenge established ideas about sex, gender and sexuality. I feel we need to make coalitions with all sorts of groups that suffer disadvantage, especially in a conservative political climate. This was the feeling too, that came out of the last two conferences. There are tensions and differences among groups at these conferences but it seems our similarities are much greater than our differences. You could say the same thing about sex and gender.

Editor: Lastly, Jill, what are you working on currently - what do you think needs challenging the most?

Jill Hooley: Well, a lot of people still think that tranys are sick and mad; I see it that it is this idea that most needs challenging.

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